Thread for random suggestions

[ingolifs]

Speaking of pace, I found the mod a bit slow on the earlier levels.
I could find no arena, nor easy early-on quests, to get my character on the right track.
The mod was none too easy on me, especially compared to the vanilla game.

There's still the arena in venice, and you can still attack the river pirates as before.

Another thing Khalid, have you thought about including arena mod, or parts thereof into your mod?

Even though the current full version of Arena mod is a bit too large and heavy for this mod (it would make the fair tournaments redundant), I still think you could use parts of the code here and there. For example, having selectable fights from 1 vs 1 to 4 vs 4, and an ability to bet based on your level. Also, you could do the palio thing to have 3 or even 4 teams fighting simultaneously.

Finally, for the lists, instead of it being strictly either horse/no horse, why don't you make it both, Like in arenamod's joust. You start off in a joust, either alone or with a squire, where you have all your equipment, except for a jousting lance, which is force-given to you. Whoever loses the first round will have some health deducted for the second round. The second round is simply on foot, and whoever wins the on-foot struggle, wins the battle.

[Questor]

ingolifs said:

There's still the arena in venice, and you can still attack the river pirates as before.

I meant the expanded arena you just mentioned.
Let me edit my previous post for clarity.

[ingolifs]

Another idea, this one on mercenaries.

I'd imagine a place like lombardia would be littered with foreign mercenaries. While the faction towns should still offer guelf and ghibelline soldiers, the neutral places like Venice, ivrea, etc and Trent and ravenna should stock other types of mercenaries. For instance, Trent would have german soldiers, Ravenna would have roman soldiers, Ivrea could stock swiss pikemen, venice could have genoese and croatian soldiers, etc. Just to put some flavour into the game.

I think these soldiers should start off relatively well in terms of stats and equipment (equal to a veteran/footman), but only have 3 or so tiers before reaching highest level.

[phaedo]

I think it would be a bit of a stretch to place Genoese mercenaries in Venice. Perhaps Milan could stock them, as the Della Scalas assumed control of Genoa for a good number of years. Or was it the Visconti? Khalid knows, but anyway, Milan would be more logical for Genoese troops (crossbowmen with high stats and skill would be awesome).

I like the mercenaries idea though, except for the fact that the Swiss didn't get involved in Italian affairs until 1483, when Charles VIII invaded Lombardia from France and fought with and against them. But hireable German knights (free-lances) and specialty troops like Genoese crossbowmen or Tuscan spearmen would be great.

[Questor]

phaedo said:

I think it would be a bit of a stretch to place Genoese mercenaries in Venice.

Byzantine mercenaries might work, though.

...

[phaedo]

Yeah, I could see a few Byzantine mercenaries coming to Venice. I'm not entirely sure about the historical accuracy of mercenaries, but I know that many nobles and soldiers in Asia Minor fled to Italy after Manzikert. The problem would be in coming up with Byzantine soldiers that are distinctive without being glaringly inaccurate (e.g., I doubt we'd see many companies of Byzantine tagmations slapping around German freelances.).

[Questor]

phaedo said:

Yeah, I could see a few Byzantine mercenaries coming to Venice. I'm not entirely sure about the historical accuracy of mercenaries, but I know that many nobles and soldiers in Asia Minor fled to Italy after Manzikert.

Warriors fighting for money have existed since classica times.
You have a point about them being somewhat scarce in XIII-XIV Lombardia.

But, actually, Lombardia had many contacts with Byzanthium since Carolingian times; artists and fresco painters come to my mind.
As usual, it's playability vs accuracy.

...

I think we shoud plan the next stage for LL: once Khalid has perfected the faction and rank workings, he might want to create a solid plot.

As I said, I was somewhat spoiled after playing Last Days or Storymod.
They were easier for me, because I could easily level my char up, and path had been lain out for me to follow.
LL gave me no quarters: it was like Native, just a bit harder, on a different map, with different factions.

Mind: I'm not complaining at all!
I am just pointing out what other players might find hard, as well.
And what might have them quitting LL for something easier played.

...

While leafing through that historical site about Milano, I noticed a lot of events that could translate well into a plot for LL.
It could feature fixed, timed events - such as deaths and inceptions of notable personalities, such as bishops and emperors - and variable happenings, such as Cathar revolts and local uprisings, that players could influence or stop altogether.

I know that a rigid plot stifles freedom, but Native MB already suffered from that flaw: too much liberty dilutes the experience.
I did not feel drawn in to see what was coming next, and since history affords plot hooks aplenty, it would be viable to explore the possibility.

...

I am sorry for my ramblings; I'm not really up to date as to what is feasible, and what Khalid had to decline as unsupported by MB.
I just hope my ideas can help dev team a bit.

[ingolifs]

No, no, I think Lombard leagues will be great without a plot, simply because the sandbox style gameplay in lomberd leagues is far superior to the sandbox style gameplay in native. There are simply far more things you can do in lombard leages before you get bored, and everything will have some sort of consequence.

I suppose there could still be some unique quests to do, who aren't central to the story, but aren't simple 'gather X units of Y' quests. Perhaps simething involving the pretenders hiding in those ruined castles.

[Questor]

ingolifs said:

No, no, I think Lombard leagues will be great without a plot, simply because the sandbox style gameplay in lomberd leagues is far superior to the sandbox style gameplay in native.

Native had no history.
Lombardia had one.

Can't we get both? Sandbox AND plot?

[phaedo]

Of course Lombardia has a history - but I don't see a Podesta of Vicenza named Ammano di Vivaro or a knight of Verona named Lodovico Sforza in the annals of the 13th century.

I think it is far better to make the setting, make it immersive, make it interesting - and then turn the player loose. For all of Storymod's ingenuity and undeniable popularity, I don't get much enjoyment from playing it. I'm far more enthralled when playing a more open ended mod like The Lombard Leagues, simply because I am totally free to choose what I want to do.

In Storymod, if you don't find X, or accidentally kill Y (Black Knight Leader), you're barred from progression. Bam. That's it - no more quest.

In the Lombard Leagues, if I want to mismanage affairs so badly that I get ejected from a city - I can. If I want to lead the Guelf League to total victory in a campaign and capture every single count - I can. This more open ended playstyle appeals more to me than following a track set by an author, no matter how brilliant.

No offense to Winter or anyone else involved in Storymod - it's just not for me.

[ingolifs]

Those are pretty much my reasons for disliking storymod too. Somehow the linear story (no matter how well crafted) doesn't really fit into the freeform sandbox style story. It means that the story parts are removed somewhat from what else is going on, and they follow a different set of rules. Also, storymod has branching storylines, but you only get one opportunity to try something. What I like about Native is that whenever you're presented with a choice, even though you can only select one option, yopu have the opportunity to try out the other option later on.

I do think though, that maybe there could be room for a few unique quests that are somewhat more complicated than the usual 'fetch' or 'kill', where you have to do several things to complete it, and the reward is something more interesting than money or experience.

[phaedo]

One thing that I do like about the Last Days is the rewards system. I think it would be cool to, say, capture a certain number of counts in the mayfield campaign and be rewarded with a relic of sorts by the Archbishop.

"Your performance in this campaign has exceeded all expectations - you do honor to commune and League alike. As a reward for your magnificent efforts on behalf of your city and league, the Archbishop would like to reward you with the Sword of St. Maurice."

Or something of the sort, at the very least a consecrated sword or banner. We could quite easily use one of Raptor's swords for the job, that way the high poly weapons won't screw up the framerate or loadtime, but will still be available if you want them.

[Khalid ibn Walid]

I apologize for not dropping a line sooner. But time is really tight. I read the stuff in the thread for random suggestions, but haven't had time to reply yet.

They're pretty good ideas. Some quick answers:

-- I don't think I'll include the arena mod. Lots of other mods have it and it would quickly overshadow the "specialness" of the fair fights. I've thought about increasing the number of teams. I guess coding that wouldn't be tough for the palio.

- I am not sure what the "two-round" joust buys you. If you knock the guys horse (& he knocks yours) you're technically in a foot-on-foot fight now. Seems more realistic that breaking up the action.

(also, there is a slight coding problem in "forcing" the jousting lance; if the npc has other equipment, he'll choose the other equipment, so I have to override all weapons (including the shield -- no way to override that separately), which sorts messes up the eye-candy. The way I get variety of weapons in the lists fight is by overriding certain weapon slots at different entry points -- which is why I have to tailor the npc troops carefully to ensure they don't fight weaponless .

-- The "neutrals" have the general mercs (townsman/mercenary/hired blade, etc.), which were useful if you're building up slots of that type. (I suppose in 0.751 slot limits aren't an issue, so perhaps having lots of different types shouldn't be a problem).

However, if the slot limitation is lifted and we do increase merc variety, but I don't know where what fits where.

- Venice - should definitely not have Genoese (Ligurian) mercs. They can provide Croatian mercs, although I will have to do a new sequence for them and give them snazzier equipment.

- Ravenna - Surely the pope's guard is not for hire! But hiring Normans would fit the bill nicely there since mercenary business was second nature to them. (Not Byz; Byzantines typically hired mercs of other countries, not lent themselves out)

- Trent - Germans, not the imperial guard of course, but the dark-hunterish types. I plan to expand the German upgrade tree anyway, incl. archers, which will be used in the invasions of the Alpine passes.

- Ivrea - not sure. Swiss pikemen would be way too late for this. But a generic "Burgundian" pikemen wouldn't be out of place there. Perhaps they could be combined with the piedmontese (foothill) bandit upgrade tree?

Odd-men out:

- Ligurian crossbowmen should definitely be available. But we have no Genoa. Perhaps dump the Burgundian pikemen and have the Ligurians hireable at Ivrea?

- Magyars should definitely be hireable; they were a significant chunk of the old armies of the Margraves of Friuli and the old Kings of Italy. Unfortunately, as Friuli is not on the map, they could be made hireable somewhere (some inn or castle in the east).

- Saracens could be hireable (the dukes of Spoleto & Benevento hired them aplenty), but that is perhaps too far south for our purposes, and we can leave them out of the hiring game.

- Tuscan spearmen? I don't know anything about these. But Canossa could be outfitted to make them available.

On plot:

I favor the "sandbox" approach. But there is a plot -- the plot you create yourself, your career. In the long-run, there will be "happenings" like revolutions, excommunications, exile, interdicts, the dukes, the pretenders, etc. All goes back to that "third tier of gameplay. But these are not triggered by time, but by your actions; there is no "sequence" for them. You just bring it upon yourself by your choices (& mismanagement) and some random factors.

The length is not long enough for rising & falling emperors & popes (neither of whom, you will notice, have been referred to by name, to allow max flexibiilty) or any grand events like a Crusade. But perhaps...I don't know. That's all a bit down the line.

On rewards:

Ah, pride before the fall! You're not important enough to wield the sword of St. Maurice, stranger. Such great honors are bestowed only upon the noblest of noble families, not some upstart.

The city equipment & gonfalon is as sacred as it gets. Perhaps if you go into Imperial or Papal service you should get some geegaws to make up for the lack of city-specific stuff.

(And if we want to be really realistic, the reward "for your magnificent efforts on behalf of your city and league" is likely to be the jealous dagger and the poisioned cup. )

[phaedo]

I, like Cicero, wear a breastplate under my toga at polling day - and to emulate Mithridates I have rendered myself resistant to the most common poisons!

"There was a king reigned in the East:
There, when kings will sit to feast,
They get their fill before they think
With poisoned meat and poisoned drink.
He gathered all that sprang to birth
From the many-venomed earth;
First a little, thence to more,
He sampled all her killing store;
And easy, smiling, seasoned sound,
Sate the king when healths went round.
They put arsenic in his meat
And stared aghast to watch him eat;
They poured strychnine in his cup
And shook to see him drink it up:
They shook, they stared as white's their shirt:
Them it was their poison hurt.
-- I tell the tale that I heard told.
Mithridates, he died old."

But I agree, the sword of St. Maurice was just an example - I'm sure the Holy Roman Emperor wouldn't have given it over to the custody of a petty Italian league, and even then the league would not have given it to a podesta only 10 days into his reign, regardless of his performance on the battlefield.

But couldn't we do something like that for the Podesta and maybe even the noble factions? Such as, when you are given the arms of your familia or the commune, included among them is a eye-candy sword?

[ingolifs]

It's good to see you, khalid. Hopefully your workload will reduce in the future.

Although I don't think Arenamod should be put into the game in its entirety, I do think there are a few features that could be stolen from it. For example, in the venice arena, the player could choose between a 1 vs 1, 2 vs 2 and 4 vs 4, and perhaps have a slight increase in the amount of bettable money. You could also borrow some of Janus' 4 way fight code for the palio fights.

The reason why I refer to the Arenamod's jousting system is because the enemy is incapable of changing weapons. Sure, we may both bring down each other's horses, but when I get up, i'll switch to my 1h sword, and when he gets up, he'll still be using his lance. So even if i'm fighting against Ezzelino da romano, it'll be an easy win, simply because he insists on using his lance on foot.