Post by Khalid ibn Walid on Mar 24, 2006 14:52:24 GMT -5
The current church was based on a mesh provided by Taurandhir for a castle keep interior. It comes very close to what I desire for the layout of a Medieval church.
Taraundhir is looking into improving the layout to get it to be more "authentic" church layout and asked for pointers. Here is the message I sent him with some details as best I could gather from internet resources.
I replicate it here because it took me so long to put together that I don't want it to fall out of my outbox.
And in case anybody better informed can come up with corrections/more pointers.
-----------------------
For the simple church, this would be sufficient. BUT....depending on how much time you've got on your hands (and how much interest you retain in this), let me give a shot to explain how an "ideal" Church/Cathedral interior of late Romanesque/early Gothic style (12th/13th C. as found in Italy) would be laid out.
[Ahead of time: Sorry if it this is very longwinded & pedantic, but I knew nothing about this material and had to do lots of internet research. I figured this PM would be a useful excuse to collect together & jot down what I learnt. My apologies.
]
INTERNAL FLOOR PLAN
OK, maybe this is asking for too much. But let's see how this sounds:
PART A - The Church: In theory
The typical church would have had a bit of a contrived "Latin cross" layout (as you can see in the diagram below).
Here are the technical terms for the letters of the area:
A = Apse (altar)
P = Presbytery
Q = Choir
(A + P + Q = "Chancel")
B = North Transept
T = Crossing
C = South Transept
(B + T + C = shaded area = "Transept")
R1 = North aisle
N = Nave
R2 = South aisle
D = Narthex
[Latin churches are supposed to be laid out with the apse on the east (towards Jerusalem) and the narthex on the west, but that was not always geographically/architecturally feasible. Still, the areas within the church buildings are still called "east", "north", etc. as if they were really in that proper direction.]
I'll explain a little more as I go along.
Two-Barrel Construction
The way to build a state-of-the-art church in late Romanesque style dominant in Italy at the time of my mod would be to build two barrels perpindicularly to form the Latin cross -- where AD is one barrel, BC (shaded area) another barrel.
The barrel BC (what is known as the "transept") was typically much,
much, much shorter than barrel AD. In many churches, BC barrel was NOT even longer than the width of AD's walls (so not much floor area at B & C) From the outside the church would just look like a single barrel (e.g. the M & B churches), rather than cruciform.
The Crossing:
Because it is two intersecting barrels, that means that after you strip away the excess inner walls, the roof above the Crossing (the intersection area (T) of the two barrels) would take a "vaulted" shape.
In real life, this was technically very difficult to do (but should be quite easy to do in Wings3D ). The great architectural achievement of the 13th C. was precisely the development of improved vaulting techniques that kept the roof from collapsing and allowed even higher loads -- which was carried on crazy-style into Higher Gothic.
If you can (although not essential), there should be four seriously strong columns at the corners of the crossing up to the vault corners.
[Irrelevant note: later Gothic loved the transept so much that they did it again and again and again, not merely at the crossing, but everywhere down the nave. So, High Gothic churches had a sort of "ladder" layout, where they laid down as many crossing barrels as they could fit, one after the other, across the nave, all the way down to the entrance. So the high Gothic ceiling would be vaulted not merely at that one crossing, but repeatedly throughout the nave. But this is much after our time.]
Let's peek into some more details of the layout.
Transept area
The transept corridor itself (BTC) was usually just an empty space.
At the very ends of the transept (area B & area C) you typically have a mini-chapel or a baptismal fount or something.
For modelling purposes, you need not worry about that and just leave that whole shaded area empty. I can jut in a couple altars or a relic coffin there later perhaps.
The Chancel
To the east of that transept lay the "chancel" (sometimes also called the "sanctuary"). This where the choir, priests & altar would be.
The foor of the chancel was typically slightly elevated and fenced off from the rest of the church with a slight railing (don't model this in the body; we have railing props; besides, for some churches, there would be an iconostasis screen rather than a railing).
If the church was big enough, they would have a choir. The choir (two sets of seat on either side) would sit in area Q. Next would be Presbytery (P), the area where the priests & assistants sat.
But don't bother with either of these really. I'll just put a couple of chairs there, and we're done.
The high altar itself was itself set up slightly higher (three steps higher, to be precise) in the Apse (area A). It was usually composed of a stone coffin-looking chest or table, pushed against an intricately worked separate-standing "altarwall" or "rederos" screen (I have the objects for altar, altarwall, altarcloth, altarcross). There was often a tabernacle box & relic slots embedded in the altar.
In Romanesque churches, this altar was in the "apse" (the semi-circular area A).
Note: The apse style was dropped eventually in favor of a "chevet" style that was popularin France at this time. Chevet was also semi-circular but with a walk-around corridor around it with lots of radiating mini-chapels (usually privately-sponsored by rich
folks). But this was not so popular in Italy in my time-phase (late 12th/early 13th).
So the picture I have above does not show the proper apse I want. The chancel shouldn't have a walkaround corridor around it. Early chancels would just be just a semi-circular shaped space up to the wall (VERY much like what you have already done in your castle keep interior). Italian apses were typically intricately mosaiced or painted. (e.g. Pisa, Verona, Venice).
The Nave
To the west of the transpet would be the "nave" (N), where the congregation would be gathered.
Now, because most old churches didn't have the technical know-how to build much of a transept, they typically "cheated" in creating a Latin cross layout by deliberately making the nave very "narrow" by laying down two long arched corridors along the side fof the nave (aisles R1 & R2). Those aisles look very much like the ones in the thirsty lion. The aisles went up to the transept corridor, but not beyond.
(And, once again, I remind that in churches of this era & place, there were usually no aisles around the chancel, but there were very definitely aisles along the nave.)
[This is why I said Latin churches "cheat" at cruciform. The whole edifice may be barrel-shaped, but if we only count the nave without the side corridors, it takes a Latin cross layout.]
The Narthex
Area D is the entrance corridor known as the "narthex". The narthex is typically separated by a wooden partition from the nave (N). So congregants would enter the narthex (D), and take one of three doors through the separation panel - side-doors into the side-aisles R1 or R2 or the main door into the nave (N).
(No need to add that wooden partition in the body -- probably easier if it is not there or can be added later as an object; it might be worth noting that in mixed Latin-Byzantine churches (e.g. St. Mark's in Venice), this wall is used as an iconostasis).
Arches & Windows
The aisles should be arched. Any windows should be arched.
But the arches should be ROMAN (round-top) and NOT Gothic (pointed-top). At best, a slight point is OK, but not more. (see pics below).
The windows should also be relatively small (not much larger than what you have there); arch them a little bit, but resist the temptation of gigantic windows. That would be later Gothic.
What you CAN add is a circular hole for a relatively large single "Rose Window" above the entrance door. That is just a round, stained-glass window. It began emerging during this time. (But again, I think that the exact design of the rose window could also be left to object props, so I think I'd skip that step and leave it to modders to add or not add it).
PART B - Practically-speaking
OK, very, very long, but perhaps you get the idea?
The single barrel of your castle keep lays EXCELLENT ground for what is to come. Much of it is already done (apse, etc.) The "ideal" case would be adjusting what you have have already done by the following:
- constructing a very short transept by a double-barrel intersection of your castle keep mesh (lay one barrel perpindicularly over the other below the chancel and then slice off the excess and knock down the excess interior walls -- just enough to get a little bit of the transept aisle and the "vaulted roof" feeling over the crossing).
Frankly speaking, this is not completely necessary (many of the Italian examples below don't have it and are simple barreled). But it would be really cool.
- adding the side-corridors up to the transept (steal them from thirsty lion if you have to -- they are Roman-arched) (You don't need to bother with "roman columning" them).
-- If you can, these corridors should begin a few steps after you enter (so you have a little bit of a narthex space). These side-aisles should only reach up to the transept. Again, I'd prefer no ambulatory corridors around the chancel.
-- Roman arch your windows if you can.
-- The chancel & apse is perfect as is. Although I would frankly prefer if you just levelled the floor to allow modders to adjust the height, stairs, etc. with object props later (rather than having preset chancel/altar floor heights).
- The texturing: I like the plain stone texturing, but I was looking into some north Italian churches which had some quite distinctive light brick & stone patterns (light brick because Romanesque churches didn't have much light from outside.) LCJr has been experimenting with such brick types a little in the thirsty lion setting and they look quite pretty. But you perhaps need not worry about this and leave it be.
To inspire you, here's some examples of interiors of some great churches of this era: (LCJr is basing his textures on these examples).
Vezelay, perhaps the grandest example of the Romanesque style
Another view
shows walls closer
Some more Romanesque interiors
A little dilapidated
Cathedral in Verona - a beautiful Romanesque interior , using alternating stone & brick which was apparently fashionable in Lombardia around this time. (click backwards for lots more pics of that).
San Zeno in Verona
Another alternating brick-stone (shows the floor)
more.
Simpler columns,
also here
Naturally, I'd LOVE an external cathedral mesh if you (or anyone) is up for it. Lombard-era cathedrals are distinctive but rather simple. Frankly, just an exalted version of the church we already have.
Taraundhir is looking into improving the layout to get it to be more "authentic" church layout and asked for pointers. Here is the message I sent him with some details as best I could gather from internet resources.
I replicate it here because it took me so long to put together that I don't want it to fall out of my outbox.
And in case anybody better informed can come up with corrections/more pointers.
-----------------------
For the simple church, this would be sufficient. BUT....depending on how much time you've got on your hands (and how much interest you retain in this), let me give a shot to explain how an "ideal" Church/Cathedral interior of late Romanesque/early Gothic style (12th/13th C. as found in Italy) would be laid out.
[Ahead of time: Sorry if it this is very longwinded & pedantic, but I knew nothing about this material and had to do lots of internet research. I figured this PM would be a useful excuse to collect together & jot down what I learnt. My apologies.
]INTERNAL FLOOR PLAN
OK, maybe this is asking for too much. But let's see how this sounds:
PART A - The Church: In theory
The typical church would have had a bit of a contrived "Latin cross" layout (as you can see in the diagram below).
Here are the technical terms for the letters of the area:
A = Apse (altar)
P = Presbytery
Q = Choir
(A + P + Q = "Chancel")
B = North Transept
T = Crossing
C = South Transept
(B + T + C = shaded area = "Transept")
R1 = North aisle
N = Nave
R2 = South aisle
D = Narthex
[Latin churches are supposed to be laid out with the apse on the east (towards Jerusalem) and the narthex on the west, but that was not always geographically/architecturally feasible. Still, the areas within the church buildings are still called "east", "north", etc. as if they were really in that proper direction.]
I'll explain a little more as I go along.
Two-Barrel Construction
The way to build a state-of-the-art church in late Romanesque style dominant in Italy at the time of my mod would be to build two barrels perpindicularly to form the Latin cross -- where AD is one barrel, BC (shaded area) another barrel.
The barrel BC (what is known as the "transept") was typically much,
much, much shorter than barrel AD. In many churches, BC barrel was NOT even longer than the width of AD's walls (so not much floor area at B & C) From the outside the church would just look like a single barrel (e.g. the M & B churches), rather than cruciform.
The Crossing:
Because it is two intersecting barrels, that means that after you strip away the excess inner walls, the roof above the Crossing (the intersection area (T) of the two barrels) would take a "vaulted" shape.
In real life, this was technically very difficult to do (but should be quite easy to do in Wings3D
). The great architectural achievement of the 13th C. was precisely the development of improved vaulting techniques that kept the roof from collapsing and allowed even higher loads -- which was carried on crazy-style into Higher Gothic.If you can (although not essential), there should be four seriously strong columns at the corners of the crossing up to the vault corners.
[Irrelevant note: later Gothic loved the transept so much that they did it again and again and again, not merely at the crossing, but everywhere down the nave. So, High Gothic churches had a sort of "ladder" layout, where they laid down as many crossing barrels as they could fit, one after the other, across the nave, all the way down to the entrance. So the high Gothic ceiling would be vaulted not merely at that one crossing, but repeatedly throughout the nave. But this is much after our time.]
Let's peek into some more details of the layout.
Transept area
The transept corridor itself (BTC) was usually just an empty space.
At the very ends of the transept (area B & area C) you typically have a mini-chapel or a baptismal fount or something.
For modelling purposes, you need not worry about that and just leave that whole shaded area empty. I can jut in a couple altars or a relic coffin there later perhaps.
The Chancel
To the east of that transept lay the "chancel" (sometimes also called the "sanctuary"). This where the choir, priests & altar would be.
The foor of the chancel was typically slightly elevated and fenced off from the rest of the church with a slight railing (don't model this in the body; we have railing props; besides, for some churches, there would be an iconostasis screen rather than a railing).
If the church was big enough, they would have a choir. The choir (two sets of seat on either side) would sit in area Q. Next would be Presbytery (P), the area where the priests & assistants sat.
But don't bother with either of these really. I'll just put a couple of chairs there, and we're done.
The high altar itself was itself set up slightly higher (three steps higher, to be precise) in the Apse (area A). It was usually composed of a stone coffin-looking chest or table, pushed against an intricately worked separate-standing "altarwall" or "rederos" screen (I have the objects for altar, altarwall, altarcloth, altarcross). There was often a tabernacle box & relic slots embedded in the altar.
In Romanesque churches, this altar was in the "apse" (the semi-circular area A).
Note: The apse style was dropped eventually in favor of a "chevet" style that was popularin France at this time. Chevet was also semi-circular but with a walk-around corridor around it with lots of radiating mini-chapels (usually privately-sponsored by rich
folks). But this was not so popular in Italy in my time-phase (late 12th/early 13th).
So the picture I have above does not show the proper apse I want. The chancel shouldn't have a walkaround corridor around it. Early chancels would just be just a semi-circular shaped space up to the wall (VERY much like what you have already done in your castle keep interior). Italian apses were typically intricately mosaiced or painted. (e.g. Pisa, Verona, Venice).
The Nave
To the west of the transpet would be the "nave" (N), where the congregation would be gathered.
Now, because most old churches didn't have the technical know-how to build much of a transept, they typically "cheated" in creating a Latin cross layout by deliberately making the nave very "narrow" by laying down two long arched corridors along the side fof the nave (aisles R1 & R2). Those aisles look very much like the ones in the thirsty lion. The aisles went up to the transept corridor, but not beyond.
(And, once again, I remind that in churches of this era & place, there were usually no aisles around the chancel, but there were very definitely aisles along the nave.)
[This is why I said Latin churches "cheat" at cruciform. The whole edifice may be barrel-shaped, but if we only count the nave without the side corridors, it takes a Latin cross layout.]
The Narthex
Area D is the entrance corridor known as the "narthex". The narthex is typically separated by a wooden partition from the nave (N). So congregants would enter the narthex (D), and take one of three doors through the separation panel - side-doors into the side-aisles R1 or R2 or the main door into the nave (N).
(No need to add that wooden partition in the body -- probably easier if it is not there or can be added later as an object; it might be worth noting that in mixed Latin-Byzantine churches (e.g. St. Mark's in Venice), this wall is used as an iconostasis).
Arches & Windows
The aisles should be arched. Any windows should be arched.
But the arches should be ROMAN (round-top) and NOT Gothic (pointed-top). At best, a slight point is OK, but not more. (see pics below).
The windows should also be relatively small (not much larger than what you have there); arch them a little bit, but resist the temptation of gigantic windows. That would be later Gothic.
What you CAN add is a circular hole for a relatively large single "Rose Window" above the entrance door. That is just a round, stained-glass window. It began emerging during this time. (But again, I think that the exact design of the rose window could also be left to object props, so I think I'd skip that step and leave it to modders to add or not add it).
PART B - Practically-speaking
OK, very, very long, but perhaps you get the idea?
The single barrel of your castle keep lays EXCELLENT ground for what is to come. Much of it is already done (apse, etc.) The "ideal" case would be adjusting what you have have already done by the following:
- constructing a very short transept by a double-barrel intersection of your castle keep mesh (lay one barrel perpindicularly over the other below the chancel and then slice off the excess and knock down the excess interior walls -- just enough to get a little bit of the transept aisle and the "vaulted roof" feeling over the crossing).
Frankly speaking, this is not completely necessary (many of the Italian examples below don't have it and are simple barreled). But it would be really cool.
- adding the side-corridors up to the transept (steal them from thirsty lion if you have to -- they are Roman-arched) (You don't need to bother with "roman columning" them).
-- If you can, these corridors should begin a few steps after you enter (so you have a little bit of a narthex space). These side-aisles should only reach up to the transept. Again, I'd prefer no ambulatory corridors around the chancel.
-- Roman arch your windows if you can.
-- The chancel & apse is perfect as is. Although I would frankly prefer if you just levelled the floor to allow modders to adjust the height, stairs, etc. with object props later (rather than having preset chancel/altar floor heights).
- The texturing: I like the plain stone texturing, but I was looking into some north Italian churches which had some quite distinctive light brick & stone patterns (light brick because Romanesque churches didn't have much light from outside.) LCJr has been experimenting with such brick types a little in the thirsty lion setting and they look quite pretty. But you perhaps need not worry about this and leave it be.
To inspire you, here's some examples of interiors of some great churches of this era: (LCJr is basing his textures on these examples).
Vezelay, perhaps the grandest example of the Romanesque style
Another view
shows walls closer
Some more Romanesque interiors
A little dilapidated
Cathedral in Verona - a beautiful Romanesque interior , using alternating stone & brick which was apparently fashionable in Lombardia around this time. (click backwards for lots more pics of that).
San Zeno in Verona
Another alternating brick-stone (shows the floor)
more.
Simpler columns,
also here
Naturally, I'd LOVE an external cathedral mesh if you (or anyone) is up for it.
Lombard-era cathedrals are distinctive but rather simple. Frankly, just an exalted version of the church we already have.