A third tier of gameplay

[nasrudin]

Since the premise of LL is to bring another level of gameplay above the awesome hack'n'slash M&B already provides, and the city offices are the ceiling of that next level, why not add a third (albeit somewhat smaller, I suppose) level above that? I mean, after one has achieved control of all three offices of one city, or x number of podestaships in x cities, another level of gameplay could help minimize any feeling of "wash, rinse, and repeat" at getting freemanship->citizenship->one or more offices in x number of cities.

I think KIW has mentioned in the main LL thread at the taleworlds board that players would eventually be able to declare their cities independent and sovereign from Emperor and Pope alike. But what then? Giving the player the option to fundamentally alter the social system he governs would make the player feel even closer and more involved in the world.

I don't have any strong feelings about how this part should begin or appear to the player, but perhaps a "diary"/"journal" entity where "entries" are added by starting a dialog - "For a long time now, you've been losing sleep...-dreaming about this glorious empire of yours((an option that initiates the monarchy/dictatorship track)) -over the oppression of the peasants ((an option that starts down a more egalitarian track...)," etc.

Eventually, after conversations with the appropriate other NPCs start the ball rolling on your budding social movement/conspiracy/personality cult, quests become available to move it forward (assassinating political enemies, supplying cash or (quality!) equipment, a new type of quest - "persuade x" - a conversation with a semi-random result, depending on personality parameters of the NPC to be persuaded, street fights with other factions, etc.).

Some end-result systems for the player to aim for:

• oligarchy: ally yourself with the Greaters (heads of important noble families , powerful guildmasters, upper clergy) at the expense of the Lessers.
  
• a theocracy - presumably puritanical, else you'd be ceding sovereignty to the Pope, no? Favoring the clergy (and to a lesser extent the peasantry?) at the expense of the nobles and burghers. Also, a boon to relations with the brotherhood?
  
• a neo-Roman revival - ?
  
• a straightforward republic - City Councils writ large for all the cities you control?
  
• some kind of syndicalism (guild rule?) - favoring the burghers in general (the Greaters in particular) over everyone else
  
• a monarchy (with the player as monarch of course) - ?
  
• a straightforward dictatorship - a monarchy that makes no pretenses about being "anointed by God"...just do what I say, or else...

[Khalid ibn Walid]

You're bringing up stuff for perhaps way down the line.

Right now, I'm focusing on getting the three offices up & running first so the mod can have a public release, before I begin conjuring up of grand plans.

But I suppose we can discuss them now.

First off, I hope to make holding on to city government hard enough as it is. This is Italy, after all. Which means that the chances of any one man holding office for more than a year or two are virtually nil. The very institutions in these republics were designed with all sorts of checks & balances to prevent dictatorships. And if those institutions failed, there was always the poison-and-stiletto intrigues of jealous nobles or the mobs. And even if a budding tyrant could outwit or crush these, remember there was still the Emperor and the Pope above you who can bring their vast foreign armies crashing down on you.

And that is just what it costs to hold one measly city.

Even the best player should always be teetering continuously on the verge of losing his office.

Hopefully, empire-building by knitting cities together shouldn't be a "wash-rinse-repeat" if we make it hard enough to hold on to anything. Controlling one city should be a difficult. Controlling two should be a tremendous challenge. If you leave old city A unattended for a few just a little while to go cultivate your new city B, you risk no longer have city A to go back to. And with three cities, you should be doing nothing but running around like a Krazy Kops fire engine putting out fires.

However, it is, as you point out, repetitive. One hard thing multiplied by two or three, to where it may not be fun anymore. So you are right to look to constitutional changes at some point so as to make it "different".

The ones you suggest (and the ones I spoke of in the Political Scheme thread) are first drafts. But if this is going to happen, we need to make them more precise, and, of course, feasible to model within a human time-frame. Once an exact outline is devised, scripting it will just be smooth donkey-work.

So take a look at the building bricks we ALREADY have and think about what we can do with combine them to yield something new.

The "Handbook" tries to give a list of the bricks. Roughly:

within a city:

- the three offices (Count/Bishop/Bailiff)
- the Consul
- the City Council
- the two noble faction in every city
- the captain of the people (1)

outside the city

- two Leagues
- the Marquises
- the Pope (2)
- the Emperor (2)
- Venice (3)
- the Holy Brothers
- the Pretenders (4)
- freelance lords (5)

Notes: (not yet included in gameplay, but already begun modelling in)

(1) - The "captain of the people" is the leader of the united lessers nobles & commoners, whenever (if) they get around to uniting. He will "emerge" if the Podestal rule is too biased towards the greaters. I haven't yet decided how to model him. I might make him either (1) just a parallel figure to the Consul; (2) outright replacement of the Consul (needs revolution); (3) a demagogic revolutionary figure who seeks to overthrow the entire government and install democracy (with himself as head, of course).

If your rule is too inclined towards the lessers, the counter-figure of the opposition will be one of the noble faction leaders you already know, or else a freelance lord or marquis brought in from outside.

(2) Pope & Emperor already have their representatives in Ravenna & Trent you can play with. Each also have two internal factions already modelled if you want to model internal political games for them.

(3) In view of ingolfis's stunning city-scape, I've come around to believing Venice can be given a more active role (not sure what). But the how is not an obstacle. Their government figures & factions are already modelled in. It is simply a matter of playing with those bricks to awaken Venice to life.

(4) "Pretenders" are just a handful of lonely figures, descendents of ancient grand dynasties, who have claims on the royal title of "King of the Lombards" (they regard the current Emperor as an usurper). So far, these are:

- Berengar of Friuli
- Hugolina of Canossa
- Conrad of Franconia
- Anscar of Ivrea
- Maybe an an anti-Pope too.

They're currently hidden in ruined castles & neutral towns.

Don't know what to do with them quite. But in the back of mind was striking up a friendship with them & using their royal status to "legitimize" unconstitutional operations & even your bid for independence.

[Naturally, the Pope & crowned heads of Europe will not stand still if Magnus the Destroyer decides to declare Verona-Padua-Mantua an independent state. But if you slap a pretender on the throne of that state as a figurehead leader, you might get away with it. Just don't forget to marry their heirs & poison their drinks ]

(5) Freelance lords are just a stock of freelance lords (Malatesta da Verruchio, Pico della Mirandola, Guecelmo da Prata, etc.) Presently, you only meet them in the fair tournaments. They have no other role at the moment, so if you need some noble (with his own heraldic equipment/armor already included) in your scheme, you can draft these. You can make them your vice-leaders, castellans, outlaw lords, mercenary captains, or whatever.

==========

Anyway, those are the building block figures that are already in place (or nearly so). They can be used to construct the "third degree of gampelay". The mod is already huge, so I don't think I want to include any more troops than that. Whatever outline you come up with, try combining & recombining these existing figures in new ways.

[phaedo]

I was thinking about some Venice quests, it's good to know that Venice might be given a more active role.

Something like "Venice's fleet has blockaded Ravenna to retaliate for the Pope's excommunication of their Doge - go convince the Venetian army under Francesco Carmagnola that such overt action against the Holy Father is not advisable. With force, if necessary. Carmagnola was last seen camped near Ferrara."

Or for the Ghibillines...

"The Venetians have time and again disrupted the peace that our Emperor has laid upon his fief of Lombardia - now they have raised an army under Bartolommeo Colleoni to raze Verona in retaliation for Verona's decision to support the Genoese. Intercept Colleoni en route to Verona and turn his forces back into the Veneto. Our scouts report that Colleoni's army is currently near Vicenza."

[Khalid ibn Walid]

Heh, heh. Nice, but you're pushing Venice a few centuries forward. Venice has no terraferma yet, Mr. Colleoni is still just a nobleman of Bergamo.

I suppose the first order of business is to ask: What sort of role do we want Venice to play?

Without terraferma, it was pretty aloof from the rest of Italy; its main sphere of action & conflict was the Adriatic (Dalmatian coasts) and east Mediterranean. It is outside the political system (it was technically suzerain to Byzantium, not the HRE). And we have no Genoa to pit against it

At best, it could be used to allow the player to carve a "neutral" career in the mod, without making it totally boring. We have a beautiful city and I've given it some lords and factions (Guelfish Tiepolo vs. Ghibellinish Gradenigo), so political life within the city could be made interesting.

But, unlike a Papal or Imperial career, Venice really has no obvious interests to advance in Lombardia. , Unless we gave it some.

[nasrudin]

If anyone fells what I'm suggesting would add something that is undesirable or out of place, please do not hesitate to speak up. (it'll be easier for me to smite you for your insolence! j/k...). I'd totally understand.

admin said:

You're bringing up stuff for perhaps way down the line.

Right now, I'm focusing on getting the three offices up & running first so the mod can have a public release, before I begin conjuring up of grand plans.

yeah, I know, but it's good for me as a player/tester to keep the end in mind, no?

admin said:

First off, I hope to make holding on to city government hard enough as it is. This is Italy, after all. Which means that the chances of any one man holding office for more than a year or two are virtually nil. The very institutions in these republics were designed with all sorts of checks & balances to prevent dictatorships. And if those institutions failed, there was always the poison-and-stiletto intrigues of jealous nobles or the mobs. And even if a budding tyrant could outwit or crush these, remember there was still the Emperor and the Pope above you who can bring their vast foreign armies crashing down on you.

<snip>

And that is just what it costs to hold one measly city.

Even the best player should always be teetering continuously on the verge of losing his office.

Hopefully, empire-building by knitting cities together shouldn't be a "wash-rinse-repeat"; if we make it hard enough to hold on to anything. Controlling one city should be a difficult. Controlling two should be a tremendous challenge. If you leave old city A unattended for a few just a little while to go cultivate your new city B, you risk no longer have city A to go back to. And with three cities, you should be doing nothing but running around like a Krazy Kops fire engine putting out fires.

I wasn't sure how much balancing would be involved or how hard it will be. Your post and rereading the main thread@taleworlds help to put things back in reference, but even with that in mind, as you said (quote below)....

admin said:

However, it is, as you point out, repetitive. One hard thing multiplied by two or three, to where it may not be fun anymore. So you are right to look to constitutional changes at some point so as to make it "different".

Management of the three cities would still be balancing the various factions (...or quashing their rebellions). The point of the character (or player) wanting to "change the system" is to effect some kind of large, sweeping change on this balancing process. The most plausible "in-game" (or "roleplaying" if you will) explanation would be an (ideologically caused) large, sweeping, and long-term change in the balance of power among the factions, no?

I don't want the player to be able to cause a Monty Python-esque "self-governed semi-autonomous anarcho-syndicalist commune"* where entire factions no longer exist at all, period (e.g. nobles & clergy), but rather one where:

• one faction is minimized: you don't have to deal with them directly in day-to-day management or in rebellions, but rather in 1) broader, more long-term crises of diplomatic relations (eg. minimization of burghers has an effect on caravans that intend to go to your city** and an otherwise increased costs and upkeeps as a city officer, since goods are now harder to come by; minimzing clergy dramatically decreases relations with the Holy Brothers & pope; minimizing nobles makes you KoS with the various marquis and destroys any connections you had with consorterie) and 2) elements of a revolution/counter-revolution system I have yet to model and really plan out.
  
  **hmm...do/will caravans and pilgrims reaching your city(ies) actually have an effect on any of: your relations with burghers/clergy (respectively) of your city(ies), your cost of doing business as an officer of the city (increased upkeep
  
  
• one faction is maximized in the decision making process. A refreshing change in the face of city government that brings its own headaches (the flip side of the coin...the minimized faction, plus rival bigwigs who have their own agenda and/or want YOUR job) and bonuses (nobles: more high level troops, cash?; burghers: money!; clergy: uh...faction points/better chance of becoming archbishop, etc.?)
  
• the minimized faction attempts to take back what it once had. if left unchecked, it will eventually spur rebellions of the appropriate troop types
  

*speaking of which, how about a Monty Python gag, like a "Spanish Inquisition" quest/party or a random "Black Knight" (unkillable)? Would you consider adding it if I submitted the details?

admin said:

And if those institutions failed, there was always the poison-and-stiletto intrigues of jealous nobles or the mobs. And even if a budding tyrant could outwit or crush these, remember there was still the Emperor and the Pope above you who can bring their vast foreign armies crashing down on you.

Those elements (particularly the first one) are what I'd like to bring forward. You would be able to take part in, fund, lead and equip a particular city faction's move for ascendancy...and have to be able to squash the counter-opposition once you and yours take power.

admin said:

The ones you suggest (and the ones I spoke of in the Political Scheme thread) are first drafts. But if this is going to happen, we need to make them more precise, and, of course, feasible to model within a human time-frame. Once an exact outline is devised, scripting it will just be smooth donkey-work.

So take a look at the building bricks we ALREADY have and think about what we can do with combine them to yield something new.

The "Handbook" tries to give a list of the bricks. Roughly:

within a city:

- the three offices (Count/Bishop/Bailiff)
- the Consul
- the City Council
- the two noble faction in every city
- the captain of the people (1)

outside the city

- two Leagues
- the Marquises
- the Pope (2)
- the Emperor (2)
- Venice (3)
- the Holy Brothers
- the Pretenders (4)
- freelance lords (5)

Notes: (not yet included in gameplay, but already begun modelling in)

(1) - The "captain of the people" is the leader of the united lessers nobles & commoners, whenever (if) they get around to uniting. He will "emerge" if the Podestal rule is too biased towards the greaters. I haven't yet decided how to model him. I might make him either (1) just a parallel figure to the Consul; (2) outright replacement of the Consul (needs revolution); (3) a demagogic revolutionary figure who seeks to overthrow the entire government and install democracy (with himself as head, of course).

If your rule is too inclined towards the lessers, the counter-figure of the opposition will be one of the noble faction leaders you already know, or else a freelance lord or marquis brought in from outside.

(2) Pope & Emperor already have their representatives in Ravenna & Trent you can play with. Each also have two internal factions already modelled if you want to model internal political games for them.

(3) In view of ingolfis's stunning city-scape, I've come around to believing Venice can be given a more active role (not sure what). But the how is not an obstacle. Their government figures & factions are already modelled in. It is simply a matter of playing with those bricks to awaken Venice to life.

(4) "Pretenders" are just a handful of lonely figures, descendents of ancient grand dynasties, who have claims on the royal title of "King of the Lombards" (they regard the current Emperor as an usurper). So far, these are:

- Berengar of Friuli
- Hugolina of Canossa
- Conrad of Franconia
- Anscar of Ivrea
- Maybe an an anti-Pope too.

They're currently hidden in ruined castles & neutral towns.

Don't know what to do with them quite. But in the back of mind was striking up a friendship with them & using their royal status to "legitimize" unconstitutional operations & even your bid for independence.

[Naturally, the Pope & crowned heads of Europe will not stand still if Magnus the Destroyer decides to declare Verona-Padua-Mantua an independent state. But if you slap a pretender on the throne of that state as a figurehead leader, you might get away with it. Just don't forget to marry their heirs & poison their drinks ]

(5) Freelance lords are just a stock of freelance lords (Malatesta da Verruchio, Pico della Mirandola, Guecelmo da Prata, etc.) Presently, you only meet them in the fair tournaments. They have no other role at the moment, so if you need some noble (with his own heraldic equipment/armor already included) in your scheme, you can draft these. You can make them your vice-leaders, castellans, outlaw lords, mercenary captains, or whatever.

==========

Anyway, those are the building block figures that are already in place (or nearly so). They can be used to construct the "third degree of gampelay". The mod is already huge, so I don't think I want to include any more troops than that. Whatever outline you come up with, try combining & recombining these existing figures in new ways.

With that in mind, I've got a firmer grasp of what to think about and where to go.

[adriano]

Perhaps when you have become the leader of a city, you need a group of consiglieri of course, so one mission could be to go around the towns to hire a group of people to act as consiglieri and add for then a totally different set of abilities. You could have the equivalant of sargeants except purely political, kind of like the first mate in Pirates mod.
examples of skills: perhaps tax collection, religion, military, commerce, propaganda, governance (perhaps hire an ex-leader) etc etc.
and each consigliere has one of these strong points, and you have a max of like 3 for example so you have to choose wisely which combo makes the perfect town governance.
this, perhaps does not to give the game more depth but would just to make it more interesting.
To make it deeper perhaps something involving overseas trade (text based) or perhaps creating a sort of culture segment of the game where you'd want to create the cultural center of italy and you could buy 'upgrades' for your house (art from the time, which you could easily get the pictures from on the net), or have nicer cathedrals, which ever is the easiest to find. thenagain that would require some major codework at the very least.

Adriano

[phaedo]

The plans for upgrading towns, at least their battlements and the cathedrals, was already suggested. As I recall, they are part of the duties of the asofyet unmodeled Bishop and Bailiff careers. I also remember a hint that the player who can gain election to all three offices would become a de facto dictator, having control over the civil, ecclesiastical, and martial authorities of the town.

That said, the focus now is to release a playable, fun podesta version. Once we get the bugs shaken out of the mayfield campaigns and all the other quests and factors already modeled, we're free to help Khalid model the other two political offices and resultant duties and political formulae.

So bug-test this one, and once we've shaken out the kinks and released a version, THEN talk about add-ons.

[Don jacobo]

can you add the possibility of`the revival of the Roman Republic?

[Khalid ibn Walid]

Don said:

can you add the possibility of`the revival of the Roman Republic?

The map only goes as far south as the Apennines.

However, I'm not sure what you mean by "revival". Rome was a republic during the time period in which this is set. You implicitly come in contact with it when crossing the paths of the Roman senators (Frangipani, Orsini, Colonna, etc.)

[phaedo]

I think he meant the hegemony over Italy that the ancient Roman Republic enjoyed rather than the governmental system itself.

[Khalid ibn Walid]

phaedo said:

I think he meant the hegemony over Italy that the ancient Roman Republic enjoyed rather than the governmental system itself.

Ah, OK. Well, in principle that should be possible. After all, there is a Roman Emperor running around and he derives his "Augustus" from SPQR. If the Roman Senate (read: Pope, Cardinalate & Roman nobility) topples the Emperor and succesfully exerts its authority over the Lombard communes (or at least up to the Po, their traditional dominion claim), then we have technically revived the "Roman republic" of antiquity.

That's certainly how many Romans (and Popes) saw it.

So , "reviving the Roman republic" = "fighting for Papal supremacy in Italy".

Yes, it should eventually be possible for you to take up the Papal cause and bring the communes under papal authority. But Rome itself will remain off the map. Ravenna will be its "advanced" post.